Best of our wild blogs: 14 Oct 16

Extinct No More: Lindsaea heterophylla
Flying Fish Friends

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The rise of Singapore’s civil society

OW YEONG WAI KIT Today Online 14 Oct 16;

It was unexpectedly fruitful. During the process of creating the nature poetry anthology From Walden to Woodlands —which I co-edited with Mr Muzakkir Samat — we found that our project fortuitously brought together members of civil society from three disparate areas: Environmentalism, inter-religious harmony and local literature.

Even on the day of our book launch in September 2015, we were thrilled that friends from the environmentalist and interfaith movements were having some of the most enriching conversations with the poets we knew.

It was especially apt that, for quite a number of poets attending our launch (which was held at the Harmony Centre @ An-Nahdhah), it was the first time they had ever stepped into a mosque. It was also a revelation to some of the nature advocates that their environmental concerns could be promoted through the medium of poetry.

The fascinating exchange of ideas and all the follow-up activities that developed from our project served to illustrate just how promising and rewarding such collaborative, multi-sector ventures could be.

I hope that our project will not be the last initiative of its kind. Rather, one key trend that could well be Singapore’s Next Big Thing is the flourishing of strong and effective coalitions of civil-society organisations, which in turn have the potential to influence Singapore’s socio-political landscape.

In the tradition of nature poetry, I feel obliged to use a botanical metaphor: The efforts of today’s civil-society activists are sowing seeds for future bottom-up initiatives to take root, allowing for effective and creative collaborations to come to fruition. The resultant saplings of civil-society organisations are thus not just growing upwards (towards some overhanging canopy of authority), but branching outwards (forging an interconnected network with one another).

In effect, the dynamics between civil-society groups have evolved. As Dr Gillian Koh and Ms Debbie Soon from the Institute of Policy Studies argued in a 2012 paper, the traditionally vertical relationship between civil society and the state in Singapore (with activists mounting advocacy towards the Government) has shifted to an increasingly horizontal (that is, peer-to-peer) relationship developing between groups on a wide variety of issues. Such a horizontal relationship has strengthened, especially when groups are united by common interests.

For example, when Resorts World Sentosa declared its intention to import whale sharks into Singapore in 2008, the Animal Concerns Research & Education Society formed an alliance with six other non-governmental organisations (NGOs) to launch an online petition.

With the combined efforts of all these groups, reinforced by feedback from members of the public, the plan to exhibit whale sharks was abandoned in 2009. Such victories may appear to be of minor significance, but they reveal the power of collaboration among civil-society groups in shaping discourse and influencing decision-making.

What is also heartening is that many of these NGOs look set to enjoy improved conditions for growth, given that the state has become less resistant towards the viewpoints of civil society. The Land Transport Authority, for instance, did make the effort to approach green groups for their views when planning to construct the Cross Island Line across parts of the Central Catchment Nature Reserve.

The Ministry of National Development also accepted all 24 recommendations by the Animal Welfare Legislation Review Committee to strengthen legislation on animal welfare. Instead of clamping down on alternative voices, the government has demonstrated an increased willingness to engage in dialogue with civil-society groups.

It might be pointed out that some civil-society groups are more contentious than others, and the real test lies in whether groups championing sensitive causes will be able to defend their interests.

Certainly, there is a whole range of causes on the spectrum of political sensitivity: For instance, interracial and interreligious harmony at one end (strongly supported by the Government, even in terms of funding), human rights and legal/political reform at the other end (often viewed with suspicion for being supposedly adversarial towards the state). Others, such as environmental protection, are somewhere around the middle. Yet, even groups promoting controversial causes have made significant progress in recent years.

In 2015, five civil-society groups even went to Geneva in Switzerland to address representatives of United Nations (UN) member states on human rights in Singapore — a notable increase in representation compared with that in 2011, when only two NGOs (Maruah and Think Centre) went to Geneva.

The five groups’ causes included hot-button issues such as migrant workers’ rights, gender equality, income inequality, the death penalty and LGBT rights. Such collaboration indicates growing solidarity among civil-society groups, and a greater ability to speak out even on international platforms.

How, then, can civil society shape Singapore’s future more effectively?


Leadership will be key. Just as gardeners are crucial to ensuring that saplings mature and bear fruit, civil-society leaders are also critical in running their organisations in accordance with the best practices and highest management standards.

In a 2014 commentary in TODAY, then Singapore Environment Council chief Jose Raymond emphasised the importance of building the leadership capabilities of civil society, suggesting strategies such as seeking corporate mentorship or undertaking relevant master’s degree programmes.

I would argue, however, that having a corporate mentor or a master’s degree does not in itself confer the skills and attributes required for effective and sustainable leadership.

Instead, it is ultimately the leaders’ own commitment, passion and vision that determine the direction and strength of their organisations. Programmes such as those by the Centre for Non-Profit Leadership can serve an advisory role, aiding NGO leaders in specific areas such as talent management, youth empowerment, leadership succession and fund-raising.

Having passed SG50, Singapore today is at a critical juncture. The question is not merely whether we will be able to survive till SG100, but also thrive like a blooming garden.

It is not merely the public and private sectors, through their provision of power and money, respectively, that are vital in ensuring Singapore’s continued success.

The people sector (that is, civil society) is also indispensable for offering ideas and networks through informed and critical discourse.

If the good work of NGOs over the past few years is anything to go by, we have reason to be hopeful and confident that civil society in Singapore will continue to blossom.


Ow Yeong Wai Kit is a teacher of English and Literature. In 2015, he co-edited From Walden to Woodlands: An Anthology of Nature Poems. This piece first appeared in The Birthday Book 2016, a book of essays by 51 different authors on Singapore’s Next Big Thing. TODAY will be publishing other essays from the book in the coming weeks.

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Sea wall homes for marine life to get into the groove

Tile project aims to improve biodiversity on structures stressful to sea life
Carolyn Khew Straits Times 14 Oct 16;

Having tiles on the sea walls of Pulau Hantu where no one can see them may seem a strange idea, but a closer look will reveal that the concrete blocks are teeming with snails, oysters and mussels.

Ecological engineering - the design of sustainable ecosystems to integrate human society with the natural environment so that both can benefit - has taken root on the southern island. The aim is to enhance biodiversity on sea walls, which are generally a stressful habitat for sea denizens to take root on, as the structures are steep and do not provide much of a foothold.

Since 2009, Dr Lynette Loke, a 29-year-old postdoctoral research fellow from the Experimental Marine Ecology Laboratory at the National University of Singapore's (NUS) Department of Biological Sciences, has been studying sea walls and their biodiversity.

In her latest effort, she is working on how best to arrange the tiles, so that they can be habitats for more marine life. Previously, she found that tiles with complex designs, or grooves and pits, were best loved by creatures such as the pearl oyster and lightning dove snail (see sidebar, right).

So, more than 700 experimental concrete tiles - each measuring about 20cm by 20cm - were fixed onto the sea walls surrounding Pulau Hantu.

Using software she developed, Dr Loke was able to adjust the intricacy of each tile design, so that she could understand how habitat complexity affects the biodiversity of intertidal organisms.

Organisms found on experimental tiles


These crabs can grow up to 4cm in width, and algae serves as their main food source.


These snails can be found in habitats such as Singapore's rocky shores. They can be distinguished by their black-and-white shells.


These oysters can be found in many parts of the world, but only a few species are sought after for their ability to produce good quality pearls.SOURCE: NATIONAL UNIVERSITY OF SINGAPORE, DR LYNETTE LOKE

Sea walls and other artificial forms of coastal defence are fast becoming the primary means of mitigating rising sea levels as well as more frequent and intense storms and flooding, explained Dr Loke.

"There is a growing realisation that because they cannot be removed, there is a need to look beyond their negative impact and to find ways they can be built to improve their value as a habitat," she said.

According to the National Climate Change Secretariat, much of Singapore lies only 15m above the mean sea level, with about 30 per cent of the island being less than 5m above the level.

To guard against coastal erosion and flooding, Singapore has been building sea walls and raising roads near coastal areas to prevent flooding. About 70 per cent to 80 per cent of Singapore's coastal areas have hard walls or stone embankments to help protect against coastal erosion, said the Building and Construction Authority (BCA).

Hard walls typically comprise vertical or sloping sea walls, while stone embankments are breakwaters built at short stretches, usually between 30m and 50m long. These can be found along East Coast Park, Pasir Ris Park and Sentosa beaches.

The BCA said it is conducting a study on Singapore's long-term coastal protection plans. It is expected to be completed next year.

A spokesman said ecological engineering methods will be considered where feasible, even though the authority's focus is on the safety and stability of coastal protection structures as well as building up Singapore's expertise in coastal protection.

Marine ecologist Peter Todd, an assistant professor at NUS' Department of Biological Sciences who supervised Dr Loke's project, said sea walls here are usually built to protect reclaimed land from erosion. "The effects of sea walls in Singapore are difficult to disentangle from the impacts of land reclamation," he said.

"Together, land reclamation and sea walls tend to result in the loss of entire habitats, as opposed to individual species."

So if engineers could find a way to retrofit tiles on sea walls, it would be the best of both worlds, he said.

In Blackwattle Bay in Sydney, Australia, for instance, scientists have built specially designed flower pots that attract more than 20 species of crabs, snails and starfish to live in them, according to a government website.

Dr Loke hopes that her work will encourage engineers and the authorities here to think of how they can design sea wall structures. Moving forward, she wants to understand the ecological processes that attract marine life to live on the tiles.

"At first glance, it seems kind of strange - natural habitats are lost by building sea walls and then we need to think of ways to make them better. But complaining won't fix the problem... We have to do something about it," she said.

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Trial to use bacteria-carrying mosquitoes to control population begins next Tuesday

Sara Grosse, Channel NewsAsia 13 Oct 16;

SINGAPORE: Braddell Heights will be the first housing estate to have male Wolbachia-carrying Aedes aegypti mosquitoes released in public spaces to control the mosquito population in Singapore from next Tuesday (Oct 18).

Other releases at Tampines West and Nee Soon East will take place over the next one month, said the National Environment Agency (NEA).

This is part of a six-month small-scale field study to determine the male mosquitoes' behaviour, with the aim of controlling the mosquito population. These male mosquitoes infected with bacteria called Wolbachia do not bite or transmit diseases. Only female Aedes mosquitoes spread disease, like dengue, by biting humans. It is hoped the male mosquitoes carrying the bacteria mate with female mosquitoes, causing them to lay eggs which do not hatch.

Since the announcement of the study in late August, NEA and grassroots leaders of the three selected study sites have been reaching out to residents.

Residents have had the opportunity to visit the Wolbachia-Aedes mosquito production facility to understand the processes involved in rearing and see the mosquitoes up-close.

Residents from Nee Soon East on Thursday visited the facility in Neythal Road. Demonstrations at the facility included how mosquito eggs hatch, separating male and female pupae and packaging of pupae and adult mosquitoes for release at selected sites.

Residents were also able to experience the release of the male Wolbachia-carrying Aedes aegypti mosquitoes in a controlled environment.

During the study, an average of one to three mosquitoes per resident will be released regularly in areas such as void decks and stairwells, but not inside homes. The three areas selected for the study have had previous dengue outbreaks and also represent a good cross-section of typical housing estates in Singapore.

- CNA/xk

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Six Zika cases reported; new cluster at Ubi Ave 1

Channel NewsAsia 14 Oct 16;

SINGAPORE: Six new Zika cases were reported on Thursday (Oct 13) according to data on the National Environment Agency's (NEA) website, after a week-long stretch that saw no new cases on most days.

A new cluster was also identified at Ubi Avenue 1, with two cases as of Thursday. An earlier Zika cluster at the same location was closed on Oct 4 after no new cases were reported there for two weeks.

The only other cluster still open is the main one at Aljunied/Sims Drive, which has seen 298 cases since the start of the outbreak on Aug 27, but none with onset in the last two weeks.

The new cases bring the total number of locally transmitted Zika infections in Singapore to 407.


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SEC suspends executive director, says investigations ongoing

SIAU MING EN Today Online 13 Oct 16;

SINGAPORE — He had just presented the Asian Environmental Journalism Awards at a ceremony on Wednesday (Oct 12) but less than 24 hours later, Mr Edwin Seah, the executive director of the Singapore Environment Council (SEC), found himself suspended from his duties without a clear explanation.

Speaking to TODAY, the 46-year-old said he was notified of his suspension via a phone call from SEC executive committee chairman Lam Joon Khoi at about 11am on Thursday.

When Mr Seah probed further on the reason for his suspension, Mr Lam told him that he could not disclose the details. A meeting has been fixed for next Wednesday and TODAY understands that a committee of inquiry will be held then.

“It was definitely a surprise,” Mr Seah said. “(On Wednesday) we had a pretty good event ... (and) this call came out of the blue. It’s a complete shock,” the father of two added.

Responding to media queries, an SEC spokesperson confirmed that “the SEC Board has decided to suspend Edwin Seah” with effect from yesterday. “We are unable to comment further as investigations are ongoing,” the spokesperson said.

Mr Seah, on childcare leave on Thursday and Friday, was supposed to fly to Ukraine on Friday to attend the Global Ecolabelling Network’s annual general meeting and elections as an SEC representative.

He would no longer make the trip, he told TODAY. In October 2014, he joined SEC as director of communications before being appointed executive director in April last year.

TODAY understands that Mr Seah had disagreements with a senior figure in SEC. When asked about this, he said: “I think it’s quite common if there are disagreements, but the fact that the programmes have gone on pretty well in the time I’ve been (executive director), that should be more of the focus.” Asked about the disagreements, SEC could not respond by press time.

Describing his experience at the council as one that was “enriching”, Mr Seah said that he enjoyed working with the team at the non-governmental organisation, where the number of projects have also grown over the years.

During the haze last year, SEC suspended the use of its green label on Asian Pulp and Paper Group’s products while some supermarket chains also stopped selling paper products sourced from the group. Mr Seah added that under his lead, the council’s financial position has also been enhanced and the employee turnover rate was lowered.

Head of environmental NGO suspended from duty pending internal investigation
Lynda Hong Yahoo Finance Singapore 14 Oct 16;

Edwin Seah, Executive Director of the Singapore Environment Council (SEC), has been suspended indefinitely from duty from Thursday (Oct 13).

In an email response, an SEC spokesperson said: "The SEC Board has decided to suspend Edwin Seah with effect from today. We are unable to comment further as investigations are ongoing.”

Apart from the phone call from SEC executive committee chairman Lam Joon Khoi on Thursday morning, Seah said there has been no interview request from authorities to assist with the investigation.

“As far as I know, this is an internal investigation,” said Seah in a phone interview with Yahoo Singapore.

An SEC meeting would convene on Oct 19. It is unclear if Seah is now on no-pay leave pending this meeting.

Seah is surprised by this move, saying that no staff has been suspended before. He is supposed to be on childcare leave on Thursday and Friday, before heading for a work trip next week in Ukraine.

He said there was a good relationship with board members like Professor Leo and Philip Su, as well as with his colleagues.

An unnamed employee said: “Edwin has been so supportive since he stepped up. I really couldn’t have asked for a better boss."

Seah was appointed Executive Director in April 2015, after having joined the SEC as Director of Communications in October 2014.

Green group chief 'shocked' by suspension via phone call
Audrey Tan, The Straits Times AsiaOne 14 Oct 16;

The head of a green group has been suspended indefinitely, surprising many in the environmental scene.

Mr Edwin Seah, 46, who has been executive director of the Singapore Environment Council (SEC) since April last year, was told of the move yesterday morning while on leave.

He said he was told via a phone call from the council's executive committee chairman Lam Joon Khoi.

"I'm shocked because no reason was given, and I was due to travel tomorrow night on official business," he told The Straits Times.

He was due to fly to Ukraine tonight for the annual general meeting and elections for the Global Eco-labelling Network, of which he is an elected board member.

An SEC spokesman said:"The SEC Board has decided to suspend Edwin Seah with effect from today.

We are unable to comment further as investigations are ongoing."

ST understands the council will hold a committee of inquiry next Wednesday.

The non-governmental organisation spreads environmental awareness through training programmes, awards and its Singapore Green Labelling Scheme.

It was started in 1995 and has 28 full-time staff.

Mr Seah, who was previously at the Singapore Tourism Board and Energy Market Authority, was nominated along with SEC former eco-certification head Kavickumar Muruganathan for The Straits Times Singaporean of the Year award last year.

They were recognised for raising awareness about the link between the haze and unsustainable paper products.

Mr Seah's suspension is the latest in a string of personnel changes in the charity.

In April, Mr Kavickumar, 27, left to join Asia Pulp and Paper (APP).

Former chief executive Jose Raymond, 44, also joined APP in January but left last month and has since set up his own public relations firm.

Professor Ang Peng Hwa, who co-founded the Haze Elimination Action Team volunteer group, said he was shocked by the news, especially as he had just met Mr Seah at an SEC event on Wednesday.

"With all the recent personnel changes this year, it seems like it is a spell of bad luck for SEC," he said.

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Malaysia: RM3mil to tackle high tides

The Star 14 Oct 16;

KUALA LUMPUR: Five states will receive a RM3mil allocation from the Government as part of the short-term mitigation plans to tackle the high-tide phenomenon.

Natural Resources and Environment Minister Datuk Seri Dr Wan Junaidi Tuanku Jaafar said the money will be used to repair and strengthen the existing bunds in Selangor, Perak, Kedah, Perlis and Penang to face the possible onslaught of high tides until December.

“But for long-term preparation against the phenomenon, we have asked for RM416mil for all the states.

“Hopefully, we will be granted the money in the upcoming Budget. It’s also fine if we can receive the funds in phases,” he said at Wisma Jupem (Survey and Mapping Department) yesterday.

Dr Wan Junaidi noted that the high-tide phenomenon was one of the outcomes of global warming, along with the rising sea levels and the unusually heavy rainfall experienced by Kelantan, Terengganu and Pahang in 2014 and Kuching earlier in the year.

He also said the Department of Irrigation and Drainage had conducted short-term and long-term studies to mitigate the severity of these impacts and on the costs involved.

Also present were Deputy Natural Resources and Environment Minister Datuk Hamim Samuri and the ministry’s secretary-general Datuk Seri Azizan Ahmad.

Dr Wan Junaidi was at the launch of the laboratory test of the underground utility detection instrument at Wisma Jupem.

He said Jupem is currently working on an underground utility map which shows all the water pipes, cables and other underground facilities.

“This utility map is important to our nation as we aspire to become a developed country because before a new building is built, knowing the layout of these underground facilities will ensure that they are not accidentally damaged by machinery, bulldozers or excavators.”

During the event, it was also announced that a new test site for the underground utility detection instrument – the first of its kind in the world – would be built at a cost of RM1.85mil.

Selangor is beefing up its coastline ahead of high tide phenomenon
C. PREMANANTHINI New Straits Times 13 Oct 16;

SHAH ALAM: The Selangor government has approved allocations of about RM8million to uplift and reinforce the bunds along the coastline in Selangor, as a preparation for the second wave of high tide phenomenon.

Selangor Menteri Besar Datuk Seri Azmin Ali said the state had issued early warnings when they were notified about the high tide phenomenon, which is likely to hit this Sunday.

As a long-term plan, Azmin said they have also submitted an application requesting RM300 million from the Federal Government to repair damaged banks.

“Out of Selangor’s 291km coastline, about 70km needs to be repaired and strengthened. “This is to ensure that we are well prepared.

I have informed to the authorities to fortify the bunds and repair tweak barriers.

“We have also issued out notice to the residents to take precautionary steps in facing this high tide phenomenon.

“We also need to consider other factors like strong monsoon wind, which is expected to hit at the end of this year,” he told reporters after officiating the Selangor Innovation Appreciation Day at the secretariat building.

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Indonesia has World`s Fastest Mangrove Destruction

Tempo 13 Oct 16;

TEMPO.CO, Malang - Indonesia’s mangrove forest makes 25 percent of the world’s total mangrove forest which is spread along 90 thousand kilometers coastline.

However, the destruction rate of mangrove forests in Indonesia is considerably the quickest and largest in the world, according to the Executive Director of the Biodiversity Foundation (Kehati) M.S. Sembiring in a workshop on mangroves at the University of Brawijaya Malang, Thursday, October 13, 2016.

Quoting the data from the Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) in 2007, Sembiring explained, in the last three decades, Indonesia has lost 40 percent of its mangrove forests. The destruction of mangrove forests is mostly caused by the functional shift of the forests into embankments, settlements, industrial sites, and plantation.

It is not only because of functional shifts of mangrove forests but also because of illegal logging. The mangrove woods get stolen to be made into building materials, boats, charcoal, and firewood. “Including the industrial wastes that kill the mangrove,” Sembiring said.

Chief of Sub-Directorate for Reforestation at the Ministry of Environment and Forestry Joko Pramono says that the remaining mangrove forests are about 3.7 million hectares. Most of it is in Java, Papua, and Kalimantan. Around 2.5 million hectares of the land are in good condition and the rest of it is ruined.


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UN moves to ban 'fastest growing' greenhouse gases

Matt McGrath BBC 13 Oct 16;

Cooling chemicals that play a key role in refrigeration and air conditioning are likely to be rapidly phased out if delegates can reach agreement in Rwanda this week.

Around 150 countries are meeting in Kigali to try and agree a speedy ban on hydrofluorocarbon (HFC) gases.

HFCs were introduced to limit damage to the ozone layer, but cause much greater levels of global warming than CO2.

However nations are divided over the speed and timing of any phase-out.

Concern over a growing hole in the ozone layer above Antarctica saw the Montreal Protocol agreed back in 1987.

The key aim was the removal of gases called chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) which scientists had determined were causing the destruction of ozone, which protects people and animals from the dangerous impacts of ultraviolet radiation.

Found in hairsprays, refrigeration and air conditioning, CFCs were ultimately replaced by factory-made hydrofluorocarbons, which essentially do the same job but without the damage to the Earth's protective layer.

The substitution worked. Earlier this year, scientists said that the ozone hole is showing "the first fingerprints of healing."

There has been just one unfortunate side effect caused by the solution.

HFCs are several thousand times better at retaining heat in the atmosphere than carbon dioxide. HFCs have helped the ozone layer, but exacerbated global warming.

As well as being destructive, they are also the fastest growing greenhouse gases - increasing demand for air conditioning in emerging economies has seen the use of HFCs up by 10-15% per year.

Scientists, through the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), have warned about the warming dangers of HFCs.

Unusually, governments took heed and have sought an international approach to phase out all these chemicals.
This move has been given added urgency in the wake of the Paris climate agreement, which aims to keep temperature rises this century well below 2C and as close as possible to 1.5C.

The scale of HFC growth is adding greater urgency say experts. After a year of negotiations, an amendment to the Montreal Protocol to phase out these chemicals is expected to be agreed at this meeting in Kigali.

"It's a big piece, these are the fastest growing greenhouse gases right now, although they are still a small percentage," said Durwood Zaelke, from the Institute for Government and Sustainable Development (IGSD).

"But an amendment could bend the curve down quickly and take out 100 billion tonnes of CO2 equivalent by mid century, and by the end of the century you'll avoid up to half a degree of warming."

There are dozens of replacement gases emerging including natural alternatives like ammonia, hydrocarbons and ironically, CO2. Refrigerators based on these coolants are already available in some developed countries.

A new generation of short-lived refrigerant chemicals called Hydrofluoroolefins (HFOs) are also coming on stream.

However countries meeting here in Kigali are divided over the speed at which existing HFCs should be phased out.

Around 100 nations including the US, EU, African and island states are pushing for a peak in their use by 2021. India, a large manufacturer of the gases, favours a much later date of 2031.

"The Montreal Protocol has a good track record of getting things done quickly and efficiently," said Gaby Drinkwater from Christian Aid.

"We would hope that there would be an ambitious baseline and an early freeze date for all parties concerned. The earlier the freeze date the better for the planet."

There is a lot to play for. An early peak means a far greater impact on temperatures - but it will cost a lot more in funding to help poorer nations adapt. The hope is that by having an early phase down, emerging economies will not take intermediate steps but go for the most advanced and sustainable options.

Unusually, industry and environmental campaigners are fairly well aligned on the need for an early phase out. Governments and private donors are willing to step into the breach and last month offered $80m to speed the transition.

There is also a hope that newer coolants will also spark more efficient cooling devices.

"If you increase the efficiency of your room air conditioner, you can double the climate benefits of HFC phase down," said Durwood Zaelke.

"So private funders have said this is a very good opportunity, and they have put together a fund that is designed to be a bridge to greater sources of funding."

Ministers arrive in Rwanda on Thursday to lead the negotiations to a conclusion. There is still much detail to be agreed. However, in the light of the imminent ratification of the Paris agreement, and a new deal on aviation emissions, there is added pressure for the Kigali talks to succeed.

"A meeting like this has its ups and downs, we will go through that cycle," said Durwood Zaelke.

"We just want to land on the up, that's the key."

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